Author Topic: Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse  (Read 4541 times)

avengah

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Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse
« on: December 18, 2011, 12:19:08 PM »
I was messing about in Hooktail Castle last night, trying to up my Power Bounce record and steal some Happy Heart Ps from Paratroopas to sell to the badge shop.

Firstly, I'll start by saying I'm sure the Power Bounce record is harder to improve on the Wii than it was on the Gamecube, because my all-time record is 26 and my 100% file's record is 23, but I couldn't get more than 14 with two Simplifiers on. I'm almost certain I got the two high scores on the Cube. Anyway, that's beside the point...

So then, this is what I worked out. This probably only applies to Superstar rank, and there will be differences depending on certain factors. This data was acquired during a few fights in the first room of Hooktail Castle, and the audience consisted of Toads, Koopas, Shy Guys or a combination of the three.

With two Simplifiers on (this may or may not make a difference), it seems that the most your Audience can increase by in one attack is 28. This breaks down as follows: 8 extra members for the Excellent attack, and 4 per Stylish up to a maximum of 5 Stylish moves, which is 20. So now we know that it IS worth doing more than one Stylish move - it may not help Star Power regeneration, but it certainly helps with increasing your Audience size.

An Excellent Power Bounce on its own adds 8 members. Add a single Stylish move, and it adds 12. A second, third and fourth makes it add 16, 20 and 24. Sixth and seventh etc. don't do anything.

Here's how it's worked out, at least at Superstar Rank:

Nice-2 = 2
Nice-1 = 3
Nice = 4
Good = 5
Great = 6
Wonderful = 7
Excellent = 8

Stylish x n = 4 x n, capped at 20

Add the highest Attack rank to the Stylish value, and this is how many audience members join at the end of the attack. Doing the Stylish move on Love Slap or Spring Jump doesn't add any extra Audience members, and we already know it doesn't add extra Star Power, so the game probably doesn't realise you've done a Stylish move.

The number that joins is constant while at Superstar rank; however, the number that leaves is not constant. It is halved when your Audience is 150 or below. If your Audience is only slightly above 150, a compromise occurs; if 20 would leave and you're at 160, it'll go down to 145. For the following, assume the Audience is well above 150.

Now, Kiss Thief is a special case. Instead of starting at 0, you start at -10 Audience members. A Stylish Nice Kiss Thief will cause two members to leave. This is worked out as follows: -10 + 4 + 4 = -2.

If you miss an attack due to fog, the audience doesn't start leaving. If you manage a Stylish or two, you'll still gain a few, I think. This needs checking; I'm not totally sure on this one.

If you fail an action command, the audience do not like that! You lose TWENTY members if you've got over 150. You can reduce this figure; let's say you do a Piercing Blow and fail the action command, but do Stylish x 4. Then, only four members will leave (-20 + 4x4).

After five turns, 10 members will leave at the end of each turn, due to the battle taking too long. Once your audience is at 150 or below, it'll halve to 5 leaving each turn. Punies are a special case; although they will all run away if anything happens on the crowd (except sleep), they will also fill up more quickly - the higher the percentage of Punies in the audience, the more will join after each successful attack.

If you get a BINGO when your audience is full, it won't make any difference to the way members leave or join. If your audience isn't full, though, it does seem to make a big difference. Getting a Mushroom, Flower or Star BINGO will increase your audience by half of its maximum size, and getting a Shine BINGO will fill it to max. However, it seems the game uses a different variable to store this new audience value - if your audience is 101 out of 200, let's say, and you get a Star BINGO to fill it to 200 then win the battle, next battle you'll only have a little over 101. However, while you're still in the same battle where you get the BINGO, the game will treat your audience of 200 as if it's an audience of 101 - far fewer members will leave when you mess up Action Commands, and even Kiss Thief doesn't seem to make members leave. I'm honestly not sure what's happening here, other than the fact that two separate variables are being used to store the audience numbers.

Well, that's that for the audience. More testing is required, but I think that's a decent start to working out how they join and leave.







Next up is Merlee's curse. It seems that the game checks to see if you've got the curse at the start of the enemies' turns and does things accordingly. If you kill all the enemies in a battle on the first turn without letting them do anything, you'll never see the curse activate except in the special case which I'll mention below.

Basically, if the curse is active, the game will seemingly randomly decide that something will happen in somewhere between 5 and 10 turns. This may not be random; it might be some sort of sequence, but I really don't know. Anyway, let's say the game decides it's 8 turns for the following example. This "value" may not be how the game actually calculates it, but it works for this explanation.

So, you start a battle with the value at 8. If the enemies get three turns then you win on the fourth turn, the value will now be 5. Next battle you win on the first turn, so the value stays at 5.

Next battle, you win it on the fourth turn again, so the value goes down to 2. Next battle after that, on Mario's second turn, the value is 1. As soon as Mario and partner have moved, but before the enemies move, the value drops to 0, and at this point, the game randomly picks one of four possible outcomes: ATT+3, DEF+3, EXP x2, Coins x2.

If it's DEF+3, it activates instantly. If it's ATT+3, it activates when Mario next attacks. If it's EXP x2, it activates at the end of the battle, and if it's Coins x2, it activates after the battle. As soon as it has activated, it resets the turn counter to somewhere between 5 and 10 again, and the cycle restarts (well, until the curse runs out).

Now, if it can't activate for some reason, then it is held in memory, EVEN IF YOU SAVE. Reasons why it might not activate are: if it's ATT+3 and Mario doesn't attack, or if it's Coins x2 and you don't win anything directly after the battle (e.g. Glitzville or boss fight). Also, while the game has one in memory ready to activate, the turn counter stops and you can't get another one. This means that if the game gives you ATT+3 or DEF+3 near the start of a boss battle, it can then give you EXP or Coins x2 a few turns later. However, this will not work the other way round - if it gives you EXP or Coins x2 in the first couple of turns, you then won't be able to get any more curse bonuses for the rest of the battle.

This is the special case I was talking about. If it's ATT+3 but Mario doesn't attack, it'll be held over until he does attack in another battle. This is the only time the curse will activate on Mario's first turn. If it's Coins x2 but you don't win anything directly from the battle, then it'll be held over until the end of the next battle, and again, you won't be able to get any curse bonuses until you do receive the Coins x2 bonus.

Finally, if the game has held an ATT+3 or Coins x2 bonus in memory, this can be cancelled by buying another curse from Merlee. This can be shown by saving with the bonus in memory, then going to fight the Spiky Goombas next to Merlee's pipe. Mario will get the bonus on the first turn. Now, reload and go to Merlee, then fight the Goombas, and Mario won't get the bonus.

Phew, I think that's about it. Sorry about the geekiness but I thought I should share what I know; it might be useful to someone. If I've not been clear about something and you need further explanation, please feel free to ask.

jdaster64

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Re: Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 02:08:18 PM »
I'm thinking we might have to do a conglomerate Stat/Attack FAQ somehow; even with access to some of the game data, I'll only contribute about as much data as you already have.  Seriously, there's some really nice work here; this would explain why I lost so much audience when trying to get a P-Down D-Up via Kiss Thief.

milesluigi

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Re: Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 02:13:01 PM »
So Merlee's curse is randomly picked, but predictable. Next time I play I'll have to keep track of that to see if I can better take advantage of the curse; knowing that I have an attack up waiting for me could be really useful. Sadly, the defense up one cannot be stored, as it just activates on the enemy turn once it's picked.

I think my pre-hooktail save file has a double experience set to go immediately. I should check that out sometime soon; get double experience fighting Hooktail (then be sad that I can't do a pre-hooktail run.)

avengah

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Re: Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 02:29:51 PM »
I didn't think the double experience set could be stored...

Actually, no, thinking about it, I think it can if you run away after it's been picked. Maybe.

One other thing I forgot to mention, about Power Bounce and other jump attacks - as you probably already know, if you do no damage, you won't usually get a Nice etc. and a few audience members will leave. I'm not sure how many, because I didn't test this. However, this doesn't apply to jump-flippable and possibly groundable enemies such as Koopas, Paratroopas, possibly Paragoombas (not sure about this one). I was wearing three P-Down D-Ups to try and improve my Power Bounce record, while keeping the Paratroopa flipped so it couldn't attack but without actually killing it. You DO get the Nice, Good, Great etc. with these sorts of enemies, even if you do no damage, and the audience increases just the same as if you had done damage.

EDIT: I'm not 100% sure about this turn counter thing for the curse. I know it's always between about 5 and 10 turns, but I don't know if it knows exactly how many turns away it is. I'll have to test this by saving in a few different places and seeing if it always happens after the same number of turns with that particular save.

The other possibility, which I've just thought of, is that maybe it's a random event. Let's say that it must be between 5 and 10 turns, for sake of argument. I'm not 100% sure on this, but it's about right. Anyway, the game might decide that at 5 turns, it has a 1/6 chance of happening that turn, with an extra 1/6 chance every turn, so that at 10 turns it's got a 100% chance of happening. Or it might be more complicated than that; maybe 25% at 5, 40% at 6, 55% at 7, 70% at 8, 85% at 9, 100% at 6. Or something different again. It'll need more testing.

If it's a turn counter, then that'll be easy to test for, but if it's a random event, that'll be harder. I'll try a few things and see what happens.

And about the audience, I forgot to mention that I think the number of members that leave might drop more when it gets to 100, and then again when it gets to 50. The compromise that occurs at 150 is this: if, say, 20 members would have left normally, then however many would still leave once 150 is reached is halved. So, if you've got 156 members, then it's 6 + 14/2 = 13 that leave. I'm not sure whether it rounds up or down if it's odd. I'll give that a test too.

Does Luigi count as a Toad? I know he can throw nice items, and so can Toads. So is he counted as three members for SP regeneration purposes?

EDIT again: And I've honestly only last night discovered that additional Stylishes help with audience regeneration. All this time, and I've always thought they were just for show!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 04:27:11 PM by avengah »

avengah

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Re: Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2011, 05:17:46 PM »
OK, either Simplifiers make a positive difference, or something else is at play here. I was in the Pit of 100 Trials, and I did a few Excellent Power Bounces. It seems that Excellents are not always worth 8 - here, they were worth 4. I was getting 4 extra members with Excellent, and 24 with Excellent + 5-8 Stylishes. This time, my audience consisted of Goombas and X-Nauts. Again, it looks like this is far more complicated than I originally thought; there may be different values for different numbers of Simplifiers and Unsimplifiers worn.

About the Punies, I should mention that the extra Punies come after the calculation is done. This means that in the case of Stylish Kiss Thief, which usually ends up with a net result of -2 audience members, you'll lose two, but then up to ten more will come immediately afterwards.

As for rounding when members leave, the number of members that leave is rounded up; your audience number is rounded down. I tried failing a Hammer attack with 153 members and ended up with 141. The number I should lose is 3 + 17/2, which is 11.5, and I lost 12.

EDIT: Yeah, it must depend on the type of audience. I tried again in a later battle with Toads and Shy Guys, and got 28. Also, about failing the action command, it is -20 if you do nothing to the enemy, but -10 or -8ish if you do damage, inflict a status or flip an enemy.

Yes, you can store any of the curses except defence in memory and run from the battle. Does anyone know what happens if you would get the "curse run out" message at the end of the battle, but you run from the battle instead? Does the message still appear, or is it held over to the end of the next battle? That's the next thing I suppose I'll try.

EDIT: If you run when the curse is about to run out, you get the "Curse run out" message as soon as you've left the screen. I'll try a few things to see if there's a fixed turn counter, or if it's a random event, then that'll be it for now. I think these things would be much easier to test with an emulator, so I'll call it a day.

I also think it's between 6 and 10 now, not 5 and 10, so it could be a random event with 20% probability at 6, 40% at 7, etc. or it could randomly pick a number of turns between 6 and 10 as soon as it's given you a bonus. I'll see if I can find anything out today, but to be honest, I can't really be arsed any more. I think I've pretty much shared what I know about it, and anything else can be found out through testing with an emulator.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 04:44:26 AM by avengah »

avengah

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Re: Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2011, 08:30:13 PM »
Firstly, if your level is 99, the game can still award the double EXP curse, which wastes one use of it and is pointless. Secondly, having done a little more testing, I can now safely say that you CAN store a DEF+3 curse in memory, because the game doesn't do what I thought it did.

I originally thought it randomly picked a curse at the start of the enemies' turn. It actually seems that the random selection is done at the end of the enemies' turn. This makes no difference with most of the outcomes, but it does mean that the DEF+3 is picked one enemy turn in advance. There is one thing that I'm not sure about, and that is this: if the enemies kill themselves on their turn, does it still count as an enemy turn in terms of whether the double EXP or Coins could activate after the battle, or whether ATT+3 or DEF+3 could activate next battle? I suppose that wouldn't be too hard to test against weak enemies - keep letting them kill themselves on the first turn against Zap Tap, Return Postage and a Volt Shroom partner. If no curse event happens in the first ten or eleven turns, we know that the enemy turn has to fully complete.

So now we know that if it gives you a DEF increase on a turn, it actually picked the curse at the end of the previous turn.

Now, I originally had a third possibility for how it determines when the curse activates. I originally thought it could either be a turn counter, a random event, or a sequence. It turns out that it is a random event, as I tried loading the same save a couple of times, and the curse occurred at different numbers of turns after reloading. The "sequence" thing I was thinking of was that maybe it would always activate after, say, 7, then 6, then 10 turns for example, after buying it from Merlee, but that's not the case.

I think it's a random event that reaches 100% probability after about ten turns, but you don't always see it until the eleventh turn if it's DEF+3. I think the probability of it happening stays at 0% until the approx. fifth turn. To test the maximum number of turns, TWO saves are required - there's no way of knowing until after you've saved whether a DEF+3 curse has been saved in memory, so a bit of copying saves (or emulator states) is required to find the maximum.

One other thing about the audience; when you press X to attack an audience member throwing a damaging object, or when a Piranha Plant eats another audience member, you see the audience number drop by 1 briefly, but another member replaces the previous member within a few seconds, so you see it go back up again. If, however, you press X to attack a good audience member, I'm not sure if you get a replacement member. I think you do, but this would be after a few leave, due to you attacking a good member.

Just a clarification about Kiss Thief - the -10 is added when you successfully steal from the enemy. If there's fog, dodginess or invisibility, and you miss due to that, you don't lose ten members - you actually gain a few if you do the Stylish command on the way. If Kiss Thief fails due to you having a full inventory of items or badges, it counts as if you fail the action command, and you lose up to 20 members without a Stylish command.

EDIT: I also need to test letting Burnt kill enemies for the curse.

With the audience, when you reach a new rank (or are Level 1), it seems you can't max out your audience unless you get a BINGO, which is temporary. It takes a few levels before you can fill it normally.

When you get a Mushroom, Flower or Star Bingo, the game fills half the max seats. This means a Bulky Bob-omb counts as two seats filled.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 11:38:58 PM by avengah »

avengah

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Re: Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 07:10:08 AM »
OK, I've pretty much finished my testing with the curse. I now believe I know how it works, and I was half right with my original thought that it used a turn counter.

Basically, there is a turn counter, but the number of turns is not decided until after the first turn. The turn is counted AFTER the enemies have all attacked - if you kill the last enemy during its attack (with a Superguard, Volt Shroom, Zap Tap, Return Postage, Hold Fast, Spite Pouch etc.) then it does NOT count, but if the enemies are killed by being burnt, then the turn DOES count. At this point, this is what it seems to do. When I say "turn" below, I am referring to this point; at the end of the enemies' turn.

So, when you buy a curse (which resets everything if you've already got one) or when a bonus has been awarded, but no FULL turns have passed since, then on the first (end of enemy's) turn, it then picks a random number of turns between 5 and 9 (I think). On each subsequent turn, it reduces this number by 1. When it reaches 0, it randomly picks one of the four possible outcomes, and the turn counter stops until the bonus is awarded, at which point (if the curse hasn't run out), nothing happens until the next end of enemy's turn; then it picks another random number of turns between 5 and 9ish and the cycle repeats. Since one turn must elapse before it picks the number of turns, this means the total number of turns before a bonus is picked ends up being between 6 and 10.

If you save the game immediately after buying the curse, or immediately after having received a bonus, the next bonus could happen at any time between about 6 and 10 turns from then, and if you reload, the number of turns might be different. However, if even one turn elapses before you save, then the number of turns remaining will be fixed; it will be between 5 and 9, but it will not change if you reload.

To recap, it picks the bonus at the end of the enemy turn, after all enemies have finished attacking but before burn damage is applied. If it's ATT+3, it activates next time Mario uses a jump or hammer move. If it's DEF+3, it activates at the start of the next enemy turn. If it's EXP x2, it activates at the end of the battle, and if it's Coins x2, it activates after the battle.

The only time you might see the curse activate on the same turn that the bonus was picked is if you get EXP x2 - if the enemies are killed by being burnt on the same turn it decides to give you EXP x2, then the bonus will be awarded straight away. Coins x2 will work the same way, except it will award the bonus after the battle. If you get DEF+3, it will hold it until the start of the enemy turn, and ATT+3 will be held until Mario next attacks with a jump or hammer move.

Finally, a curse bonus that has been picked but not awarded will be held in memory, even if the game is saved. It is therefore possible to engineer it so that the bonus you want will activate on the first turn of the next battle. Any bonus can be kept in memory by running from the battle, but there is no way of knowing that (a) you've got a bonus waiting, or (b) what that bonus is, without playing on to find out.

I think you get 5, 10, 20 bonuses with the Cheap, Normal and Special Paths. This I'm not sure about without testing, though. I'll see if I can get approximate probabilities for how many turns it is between bonuses, but I think I've pretty much cracked the curse wide open.

EDIT: Something I might have noticed with the audience, but I'm not sure - I think fewer Toads join with higher ranked moves. I did a Stylish Kiss Thief with an audience of 200 Toads, and 4 left. However, with X-Nauts and Goombas, 2 left. I'm not sure about this, though - it needs testing. Also, I'm still not sure about Bulky Bob-ombs and Luigi - I think BBs count as one audience member, even though they cover two seats. I've got no way of knowing how many members Luigi is worth; this would need testing on an emulator by checking the actual variables.

EDIT2: Slight mistake before. If a Piranha Plant eats another audience member, he isn't replaced straight away. I must have been thinking of when a Boo makes someone invisible - the Boo leaves, then he is replaced in a few seconds.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 11:10:20 AM by avengah »

avengah

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Re: Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2011, 01:52:50 AM »
One more small addition for now: A successful guard or Superguard seems to attract 2 or 4 members.

Oh, and Veil's Stylish doesn't give much SP. I think this is because the Nice etc. is on a different turn than the Stylish, so they are treated separately - as a Nice, then a Stylish with no Action Command (like Bomb Squad).

jdaster64

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Re: Stylish moves' effects on Audience, and the curse
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2012, 06:11:32 PM »
Something interesting; I was looking for where the audience number was determined in the RAM data, and it appears that just over the current value, there are two floating-point variables; one of them is the current value, and another is similar, but has a ton of decimal places.  I'd like to look at these more, but getting them to show up in the Cheat Viewer is a hassle, and since it's in FP, I can't read it right off without a converter.

Also, Time Out's bomb bar stops at 110% in FP; not sure if that necessarily means 110% chance of working.  I wouldn't doubt it; it seems to work fairly frequently.  Gale Force's stops at 100% but has a constant 30 in FP shortly under; perhaps a reduction, making it 70%?

EDIT: Sample audience values in RAM...

(A Hammer Bros. audience on a Hammer Bros. battle, start of battle w/138 audience)
0x01000000
0
-280 FP
-160 FP
0
15 Hex
138 FP
200 FP
138.267242 FP
0
138 Hex
71 Hex
67 Hex
200 Hex
0
0
0
10 Hex
(After a turn with some attacks)
0x01000000
0
-280 FP
-160 FP
0
15 Hex
155 FP
200 FP
155.267242 FP
0
155 Hex
79 Hex
76 Hex
200 Hex
0
0
0
10 Hex
...several addresses later...
0x80D0AD00 Pointer
2 Hex
0
0
0
15 Hex
There's more stuff afterward, but I don't think it's relevant.

(A Boo/Koopa/Puni audience against Elite Wizzerds, 173 audience)
0x01000000
0
-280 FP
-160 FP
0
15 Hex
173 FP
110 FP
173.321686 FP
0
173 Hex
87 Hex
86 Hex
200 Hex
0
0
30 Hex
0
0
0
0
12 Hex
27 Hex
(A bit later, 184 audience)
0x01000000
0
-280 FP
-160 FP
0
15 Hex
184 FP
110 FP
174.971664 FP
10 FP
184 Hex
92 Hex
92 Hex
200 Hex
0
0
30 Hex
0
0
0
0
12 Hex
27 Hex
...
0x80D871C0 Pointer
1 Hex

I'm especially curious as to why ten audience members apparently went into another variable, and why the one FP value was 110 in the Wizzerd battle, but 200 in the other.  (I am level 99 in the Hammer Bros., and 35 in the other, if that makes a difference)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 06:31:15 PM by jdaster64 »